Does Bolter Discipline Affect Vehicals Again

#51

Posted 24 January 2022 - 06:47 PM

noigrim

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#52

angrom

Posted 25 January 2022 - 12:37 AM

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@nolgrim  Not even shut.

Every bit always what seems to do good GK  is but smoke.

As GK termi and Paladin are overcosted most people are going for the strike spam so they already had the ii* shots at short range when deep striking

and even if you were using them they are intended to charge the very turn they come from reserve with beginning to the fray so will non really benefit from it in melee and the short corporeality of time information technology will be useful does not make up for the cost.

The only example scenario where this dominion will be welcomed is if y'all all of a sudden kickoff to play a land passenger crusader (Probably this change will push some players in that direction)

and/or if you play your strike squads as bottom of tabular array campers (but at 21 pts per model you only better off getting some deathwatch kill team for that part.)

In my stance the only ones benefiting from that are deathwatch, tzench termi (they didn't actually need a vitrify) and power armored glorified Tau (Aka primaris SM) deployment zone campers.

In that location is a good idea behind this bolter change but it is actually badly calculated.

It would have been probably easier, more than widely useful and fluff to give a rule such as "when advancing every bolt weapon (including heavies such every bit heavy bolter and autocannon) are considered as assail weapon and so can shoot when advancing with a -ane to striking unless the weapon was already Assail (storm) in that example they do non suffer the -1 to hit malus" It would have fitted SM back to their original role (every bit assault unit) rather than pushing them further into a role of armored guardsmen playing bottom of tabular array.

Edited by angrom, 25 Jan 2022 - 12:twoscore AM.

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#53

Xisor

Posted 29 January 2022 - 08:49 AM

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All this does is reflect, to me, the applesauce of DW in eighth Edition. In an era of auras, they even so pushed ahead (read: fabricated aught effort other than literal translation from 7th) and went with mixed squads.

It'southward not intuitive, nor is it comfy inside the rules.

The unintended consequences of storm bolters and tempest shields drive that home for me, doubly.

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#54

anarchistscourge

Posted 29 January 2022 - 01:55 PM

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Something I don't call up any one has considered (unlikely every bit it is) is that GW did actually realize what they were doing for DW with the Beta rule and went ahead anyway. SM are the poster boys and whether or not they are powerful will e'er sell, this could be their fashion of trying to placate SM players while keeping DW more powerful (potentially considering they but desire to keep DW at a higher tier, or to sell more models).

I notice it doubtful, but there is that possibility.

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#55

Vel'Cona

Posted 29 Jan 2022 - 01:55 PM

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Keep the discussion to how this rule affects DW only, brothers.  GK discussions become in the appropriate subforum.

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#56

Mr4Minutes

Posted 31 Jan 2022 - 05:14 AM

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These rules make our ground forces better, and assistance us occupy infinite in the competitive meta, and we're against it why?

Information technology'due south still bolter fire, so it has its limitations. Nosotros're however probably DS into rapid fire range to get at the bigger threats anyways.

It does boost damage output at our 13-24" range, just fifty-fifty that depends on what units your taking and objectives you demand.

This isn't making DeathWatch a Tau or guard gun line. Just opening upwards our options a piddling, which is a proficient thing.

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#57

vigitant

Posted 31 January 2022 - 06:42 AM

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I'yard reminded of a chiliad old story from dorsum when I led Ork WAAAGH's back in fifth ed.  (dont worry, Vel'Cona, I'thou getting back on topic. I hope.)

I had a guy who wanted to fight my orcs.  He was playing 'nids, and I brought my standard TAC fun list.  I always preferred shoota boys, and the back bone of my list was 120 shoota boys.
My nid opponent had tailored his list to the hilt.  he had brought a listing designed to annhilate orcs in melee.  genestealers galore.  hardly a single gun to be constitute.

He was very confused when I looked at his oncoming horde, moved back 6", and striking him with the dakka.
I spent the game sacrificing speedbump killa kans while i shot him to pieces with my kiting greenskins.

Morale of the story:   while this new rule for DW doesnt make us a good gunline army, it means we become a scary gunline army to anyone who has problem dealing with that tactic.

Edited past vigitant, 31 January 2022 - 06:43 AM.

Assume luck will kicking y'all in the balls, simply e'er be set up to stomp your opponent if he trips.

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#58

Lemondish

Posted 31 January 2022 - 12:46 PM

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These rules make our army meliorate, and help united states occupy space in the competitive meta, and we're against it why?

Information technology'southward still bolter burn, so it has its limitations. We're notwithstanding probably DS into rapid fire range to get at the bigger threats anyways.

It does boost damage output at our xiii-24" range, but even that depends on what units your taking and objectives you need.

This isn't making DeathWatch a Tau or guard gun line. Just opening up our options a picayune, which is a good matter.

Funny enough - saw a game played confronting a Tau gunline with

SB

/SS vet squads in cover. Vets with storm bolters parked in ruins are so skilful it isn't even funny. I have to admit that my initial impression had me thinking "only we already have the Stalker for that job, and this is a vitrify to non mixed Intercessors non and then much vets, which will just deep strike anyway."

OH BOY was I 100% incorrect nigh that.

The opponent had Tau in a 1500 point game, so initially he was totally happy with that setup. Until turn 1, when a grand total of one terminator and a half died to his fire warriors and broadsides, then the Deathwatch returned burn down at 30" range and wiped 25 fire warriors and almost of the drones on the field.

Then turn 2 happened, and 2 commanders and 6 crunch suits killed iv guys with storm shields. Then the Deathwatch returned fire and charged and killed every single one of them.

By plough 4, the Tau were tabled and the Deathwatch had lost one dreadnought, half dozen stormshields and 2 terminators, in a directly up static gunline fight against Tau at mostly 30" range.

Primaris ain't got cipher on 4 shots from 30", 3++, and 4 wounds of 2+ to chew through. This adds a valuable new capability to the storm bolter Vet squad - hanging back to deliver the pain, abroad from the massed attrition burn and rapid fire plasma.

Edited by Lemondish, 31 January 2022 - 12:47 PM.

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#59

Beams

Posted 31 January 2022 - 03:54 PM

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The scary matter, for me, virtually SSSB vets is they have a threat range of 30" with iv shots a piece at AP -1. If deployed correctly, against whatsoever regular army that has to motion shut to leverage firepower, you have a couple turns where yous are definitely outshooting them, and have a 2+/3++.

A squad of 5 is 100 pts, and puts out 20 shots so long as information technology doesn't move. That's 5 pts a shot at 30".

Basic siisters are 9 pts a shot at 24",

Stormbolter dominions are half-dozen pts a shot at 24"

Guard is 4 pts a shot at 24", with significantly less powerful shots.

So while at that place'south definitely caveats on how you accomplish that, the option is going to be terrifying if utilized well, and tin really, really hurt anyone who isn't prepped for it.

Edited by Beams, 31 January 2022 - 03:55 PM.

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#lx

Black_Knight

Posted 31 January 2022 - 05:twenty PM

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Although I like that we have been buffed, I really do not like using Storm Bolters at 30". I really call up they should make the Storm Bolter Assault three or 4 and 18 inch range. Information technology is ever depicted in assault situations. This would allow the normal Bolter and Stalker to still be relevant with longer range, at reduced shots/motility.

Terminators are supposedly curt range close quarter boarding activity troops. Not long range snipers

Stalker 30, 2x Heavy, maybe fifty-fifty giving them the Sniper dominion if they didn't motility.

Bolter 24, 2x Rapid.

Storm eighteen, 3x or 4x Assault.

But even if this new dominion feels similar a ring aid rather than a redesign that Marines demand, I do like the fact that our normal troops are at present scaring people, like they should exist.

Edited by Black_Knight, 31 January 2022 - 05:21 PM.

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#61

Syward

Posted 31 January 2022 - 05:59 PM

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Although I similar that we have been buffed, I actually do not like using Storm Bolters at 30". I really think they should make the Storm Bolter Assault iii or 4 and eighteen inch range. It is always depicted in assault situations. This would allow the normal Bolter and Stalker to still be relevant with longer range, at reduced shots/movement.

To me it makes perfect sense that a Tempest Bolter is Rapid Fire ii. Later on all, isn't a Storm Bolter substantially merely ii normal Bolters joined together then that both can fire at the same time?

Personally I really like the idea of this dominion and that information technology's broad plenty to cover Storm Bolters that are equipped on vehicles and I can't wait to try information technology out in my next game. Information technology's even got me considering taking units that I wouldn't normally take, similar Terminators, which IMO is a proficient thing as it will make our lists (and Codex: SM lists) more diverse.

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#62

Lemondish

Posted 01 February 2022 - 12:28 PM

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Although I like that we accept been buffed, I really do not like using Storm Bolters at 30". I actually call up they should make the Tempest Bolter Assault 3 or 4 and 18 inch range. It is always depicted in assault situations. This would allow the normal Bolter and Stalker to nonetheless exist relevant with longer range, at reduced shots/movement.

To me it makes perfect sense that a Storm Bolter is Rapid Burn 2. After all, isn't a Storm Bolter substantially just two normal Bolters joined together then that both can fire at the same fourth dimension?

Personally I really like the idea of this rule and that it'due south wide plenty to cover Tempest Bolters that are equipped on vehicles and I can't expect to try it out in my adjacent game. It'south fifty-fifty got me considering taking units that I wouldn't normally take, like Terminators, which IMO is a expert thing as information technology volition make our lists (and Codex: SM lists) more than various.

I mean, that's what information technology looks like, but you could easily adjust its contour to reflect it'south beefy, unwieldy nature and reduced barrel length.

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#63

Black_Knight

Posted 01 February 2022 - 01:21 PM

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Although I similar that we have been buffed, I actually do not like using Tempest Bolters at 30". I actually remember they should make the Storm Bolter Set on 3 or 4 and xviii inch range. It is always depicted in attack situations. This would let the normal Bolter and Stalker to yet be relevant with longer range, at reduced shots/movement.

To me it makes perfect sense that a Tempest Bolter is Rapid Fire 2. After all, isn't a Tempest Bolter essentially just two normal Bolters joined together and then that both tin can fire at the same fourth dimension?

Personally I really like the thought of this dominion and that it'southward broad enough to cover Storm Bolters that are equipped on vehicles and I tin can't wait to endeavour information technology out in my next game. It's even got me considering taking units that I wouldn't normally take, similar Terminators, which

IMO is a good thing equally it volition make our lists (and Codex: SM lists) more diverse.

I mean, that'south what it looks like, but you could easily suit its contour to reflect it's bulky, unwieldy nature and reduced barrel length.

That's what I meant, its more than like a bolter with a sawn off butt. Likewise I think that'south why information technology isn't normal loadout because of the recoil, which is removed with the Terminator plate.

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#64

Raven1

Posted 01 February 2022 - 03:26 PM

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All this does is reflect, to me, the applesauce of DW in 8th Edition. In an era of auras, they nevertheless pushed ahead (read: made cipher effort other than literal translation from 7th) and went with mixed squads.

Information technology's not intuitive, nor is information technology comfortable within the rules.

The unintended consequences of storm bolters and tempest shields bulldoze that dwelling house for me, doubly.

I'g not certain that DW are all that potent

tbh

. Recently a histrion did take 2nd in a big tournament but the majority of his points were in Astra Militarum and specialist detachments from Vigilius. And so I personally wouldn't go to crazy about DW beingness OP at the moment.

LVO

might tell a unlike tell, only a lot of the big players are trying Orks. Power Armor is safely however lackluster.

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#65

Lemondish

Posted 01 February 2022 - 05:17 PM

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All this does is reflect, to me, the applesauce of DW in 8th Edition. In an era of auras, they still pushed alee (read: made zero effort other than literal translation from seventh) and went with mixed squads.

It's non intuitive, nor is it comfortable within the rules.

The unintended consequences of storm bolters and storm shields drive that habitation for me, doubly.

I'g not sure that DW are all that potent

tbh

. Recently a player did take 2nd in a big tournament only the majority of his points were in Astra Militarum and specialist detachments from Vigilius. So I personally wouldn't go to crazy near DW beingness OP at the moment.

LVO

might tell a different tell, but a lot of the big players are trying Orks. Power Armor is safely withal lackluster.

I recollect that ultimately depends on how one subjectively determines what blazon of performance they expect to be viable out of a 'deathwatch army'. This is a specialist force with a glaring weakness against vehicles and all of the downsides that come up with beingness a depression model count force in the electric current meta shackled to a limited selection of elite, expensive units. Fifty-fifty at their best Deathwatch cannot provide effective anti-tank, screening, or board control, and a large function of that is due to the mode the ground forces is designed. At the competitive level, information technology volition require you to play to the mission higher up all else, and you lot will find match ups y'all cannot overcome. This is equally an outcome with the way the missions and tournament structures are designed since a big portion of the meta is defined past a booklet of house rules.

Soup will exist guaranteed for Deathwatch for the foreseeable time to come. That should not affect their capability in the heed of the players. Custodes are in the same boat - they volition never be a mono-force.

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#66

Prot

Posted 05 February 2022 - 07:27 PM

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Well this has me wanting to try my Terminators again.

So what I'g thinking is not mixing up squads as much and using my "terminator points" for a true squad of my favorite loadout which is pretty vanilla but has a few Melta-Fists.  Add in my Termie Captain with melta Fist (I'thousand distressing, I know Jump Pack Captain is more than efficient but it was and so hard for me to get the limited store opening model, I desire to utilise him as much as possible.). The Termie Captain sometimes gets Bane Bolts , just now it would be four shots at 24" so I'm looking forrard to trying that!

I wish this worked for stuff like Reiver squad fire which is fairly lethargic, but I'm non going to mutter!

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#67

Black Blow Fly

Posted 05 Feb 2022 - 08:06 PM

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Check the batreps on Twisted Dice Prot... they use terminator Cpts and terminators to full effect.

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#68

Syward

Posted 05 February 2022 - x:22 PM

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Well this has me wanting to try my Terminators again.

And then what I'chiliad thinking is not mixing up squads as much and using my "terminator points" for a truthful squad of my favorite loadout which is pretty vanilla but has a few Melta-Fists.  Add in my Termie Helm with melta Fist (I'one thousand distressing, I know Jump Pack Captain is more than efficient just it was and then hard for me to get the express shop opening model, I want to apply him as much as possible.). The Termie Helm sometimes gets Bane Bolts , but now information technology would be 4 shots at 24" and so I'thou looking forward to trying that!

I wish this worked for stuff similar Reiver squad fire which is fairly lethargic, merely I'g not going to complain!

I'm with you on adding full Terminator Squads to my list. I'm going to add two TDA captains, 1 with Th & SB + Banebolts and the other with SS & SB. I'thou going to add together two TDA squads, one w/Melta-Fists & SB and the other with SB, and two CML.

The TDA capt w/SS & SB is going to sit back west/the CML team & my TLLC/ML Ven Dreads while the TH & SB TDA capt is going to deep strike w/the Melta-Fist TDA squad & my two Intercessor/Hellblaster Fortis KTs and hopefully really mess some things up.

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